It has begun :

[belthazor]

As long as everyone expressing an opinion in this thread can live with the fact that our opinions all vary, this might be a good way to vent at such a volatile time.

But just remember, this thread is unique to this website, and doesn't have any relevance to what BetaOne is here for. So as long as we can express ourselves without hostility toward our fellow members, and maintain respect for each other, go on by all means.

[JacKDynne]

Quote:

In part, that means that we are competitive and selfish, but it also means that cooperation is just as fundamental in our makeup

Hmm so that would be akin to yin/yang diurnal nature.

I hear yah Tube

The rest of you buoys let's stick to the rules or this can easily get out of control.

@ redkitty: I am planting some flowers in my backyard for you. They are very pretty.

/JD

[Cactus]

Respect is where you accept someones optinion without being derogatory about it. Our little community is mature enough to share clues without making smart-ass remarks, or so I would hope.

@KC You recognise real friends by the respect they give you. I believe that says it all!

It has begun. Please let it end.

[tubebuoy]

"Please don't delude yourself that you're a realist and I'm a bleeding-heart pacifist. On the contrary, in general I'm a vile-tempered misanthrope and from what I've seen, most of the people who are supporting this power grab are simply ill-informed"

I would suggest, anyone who thinks this war is a "power grab" is simply "Ill-informed" The USA does NOT engage in wars of conquest. Kuwait was returned to the Kuwaities, Japan was returned to Japan, Germany was returned to Germany,etc.

Iraq will be returned to Iraq and Saddam will be gone! The people of Iraq will say "Thank you USA, for ending the murder and torture." Don't believe me? Keep watching the news.

One more thing, as a Viet Namn anti-war protester, I am VERY SAD to see todays American anti-war protesters. We protested Viet Namn after YEARS of lies and phoney 'body counts' created to delude us into thinking we were winning a war our government was afraid to prosecute for fear China would feed millions of thier 'children' into action to defeat us.

Todays American protesters seem to fall in to two groups...

1. A bunch of kids who think Bill Clinton was 'cool' and Bush 'Sux' and have nothing better to do but raise hell. (where were they/you durring Kosavo? [Clinton's war] )

And...

2. A bunch of old hippies gathering for "One Last Hurrah!" (Look out for the Brown acid! It's a bad trip!) And who also seem to want to perform oral sex on Bill Clinton.

Beyond sad, beyond pathetic.

[DoG]

Ahhhhhh Tube, i really do love your posts So damn refreshing :P

Keep your eye's on the Food-for-Oil resolution set before the UN, Kofi Annan has watered it down but its still a realdoozy

[redkitty]

Well tubeuoy, I guess you aren't talking to me. Unfortunately, I'm a long way past being a kid and I despised that weasel Clinton from the first time I heard him open his mouth (but the current Liar-in-Chief is much worse in every way). As for hippies, I was always too much of a rationalist and too fond of personal hygeine to get down with them.

Viet Nam? I'm glad you learned that you were being lied to, even if it took years. Took me years, too, but I was younger then. Now you are being lied to again, so why wait years to find it out? Back then, I too bought the line about us "not prosecuting" that war, but judging from the tonnage of bombs we dropped and the number of people killed, I really don't think you can say there was any lack of zeal on our part.

Japan and Germany? That was half a century ago, and that operation was run by New Dealers, not a bunch of Reich-wing thugs. Kuwait is a Bush business partner and last I looked, still not a democracy. What do you say we talk about Afghanistan instead? Or Haiti, Columbia, Chile, Argentina. If you look past the rhetoric, democracy has seldom been our objective in recent years, not even in the US itself.

Truth is, I'm more worried about consequences on the home front and in international relations than I am about Iraq. Told you, I ain't no bleedin' heart. Whichever way this event turns out for Iraq (and I hope some good comes of it), I'm thinking it will be bad for the US, for many reasons.

Hey JackDynne!

Quote:

Hmm so that would be akin to yin/yang diurnal nature.

Uh... I wasn't going to say anything, but I don't think "diurnal" is the word you're looking for. Never mind, I know what you mean. As I said, it's a choice. After a long and bloody history, Europe finally seems to be learning that lesson. Why haven't we?

Flowers, Jack? I'm not as spry as I used to be, but I'm not ready to check out just yet, thanks.

[redkitty]

Here are a couple of interesting opinion pieces -- one from a pro-war leftist and one by an anti-war right-winger. Both are worth a read.

*http://www.salon.com/books/int/2003/...man/index.html

*http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/...0-75800736.htm


tubebuoy -
Maybe I should clarify something. I never said anything about a "war of conquest". I said "power grab" and I stand by that. As for most war supporters being ill-informed, that doesn't even necessarily pertain to whether a war in Iraq is a good idea or not (I think not). A recent poll indicated that a large percentage of Americans now believe that it was Iraq that flew the planes into the Trade Center**. That level of ignorance is not an accident and if it doesn't scare you it damn well should.

** Gallup, Mar 3, 03 -- 51% believe that Saddam Hussein was personally involved

[JacKDynne]

redkittycat,

The flowers are not for when you check out. They are just very pretty and remind me of you.

Btw- Read any Phillip K. Dick novels lately?

/JD

[redkitty]

Nah, Jack, Phil Dick is too surreal for me... too much like real life. I prefer a little escapism in my fiction.

Speaking of SF, when I was a kid I enjoyed reading social satire from the forties and fifties by the likes of C. M. Kornbluth and Robert Sheckley. Cautionary tales, but far-out enough to be funny. Nowadays, I see similar stuff reported in the daily paper. Like a hereditary idiot appointed to the Oval Office. Like a US Office of Disinformation. Like corporations openly writing the laws. Am I the only one who thinks we've gone down the freaking rabbit hole?

Never mind, I think I'll just go play a video game or something.

[JacKDynne]

We've gone down a hole but I would not necessarily call it a rabbit hole.

Life is too short to hate

Be careful on what videogame you play, they all can be labeled as propaganda in some fashion.

/JD