It has begun :

[JacKDynne]

No offense taken

I too have no yearning or joy for war. It's just an unfortunate fact that sometimes the only option is that of force. Believe me, I take no satisfaction in violent force of any kind and personally try to avoid it at ALL costs. I would love to live in a Utopia where all we have to do is enjoy life. But I am also a realist, perhaps a bit too jaded by the diurnal nature of our species, who "don't check appearance but I check the way you call 'em" (Pato Baton) and have seen the good and evil, the yin and yang, of pretty much our race as a whole.

Think about it, in the many thousands of years that we have "progressed" we are essentially the same, governed by many primal urges and impulses that really have not changed. We ARE animals at heart. There is just no way around it, it got us this far, and it's a shame that this far is all we are at, but it seems to be a constant that is cycllic in nature. Take a look through history and you will see that the constants don't change, only variables such as technology and society.

Quote:

It's a shame how some people act. War is always a sad thing, yet some people seem to enjoy it

I agree. But that may just be part of the price we have to pay; for example how can you laugh if you don't know what it is to cry, how can you smile if you don't know what it is to frown, how can there be a heaven if there is no hell, how can there be matter if there is no anti-matter? Maybe we are just victims of the physics of our universe, its bipolar nature.

I have dreams too, not only for us but for our children and our children's children, so when you guys find that Utopia please drop me a line as I will be trying to find it myself and may be a bit distracted

Carpe Diem my friends, may we all get through this latest chapter in human existence and forge better roads to the future

/JD

[Stringent]

Humans cannot change their nature, a cat cannot change its nature, nor can a rotweiller dog. They all have the same underlying nature specific to itself. For a change to actually occur it would take some sort of force that works against nature.

[rikytik]

After a 30 year career as an expatriate employee, 10 years for a US company and 20 for a French company, spending time in many countries, including the mid-East and Asia, I learned that a family with no material wealth who live in a yurt in the Takla Makan Desert under a severe Communist regime can be as wildly happy as millionaires who live in villas in Cannes or mansions in Beverly Hills. It is neither the government, nor the wealth that is the key to happiness.

I lament that people/governments are not terribly understanding. Once they make up their minds about something/someone, they rarely will stand back, reconsider, and alter their thinking. Since the press has little of interest to report on the progress of the "war", they have been doing many intereviews with people/agencies who are assisting in providing goods and services in Iraq and elsewhere. It is reassuring to note the tremendous amount of compassion exhibited by people from many countries who work behind the scenes--People who do this work out of compassion--not material reward

Lets hope that the government leaders have some productive negotiations going on behind the scenes that will bring a less destructive conclusion to this business. I am cynical because I sense the strong hand of big corporate interests.

[unicorn]

Maybe we cannot change our nature for the moment. In long terms there is no need of any special force though - evolution (not on the schedule in all American schools as I understand it) will go on.
Now different humans have reached different levels and it will always be frustrating for some to see other act more like reptils than humans. Different perspectives...

So, what we can do is make decisions. Whatever stage of personal and specie-related development you have reached you have the ability to communicate and think. (Which btw make humans something different from animals.) This means that those making decisions (like "Now it's time to kill a lot of Iraque people - they can have it as their dictator nowadays is such an annoying prick") listen to what other more civilized habitants say. The day most Americans, Britons and Europeans claim a stop of the illegal war acts going on they actually also will stop - and the evolution has taken another step upon the very long road leading to peace, cooperation, health, knowledge, democrazy and intergalactic spacetravels.

Finally I quote myself:

"We shouldn't need to much of ancient history endlessly repeated to realize that peace is a very fragile condition, easily threatened by local actions. I feel sorry for all those that will loose life or health in the future due to politics of today. Every great leader should strive for anything but war."

[rikytik]

You got a point unicorn. Trouble is, people have short memories. It's why kids don't listen to their parents. ...and it's why people tend to like their pets more than their kids. Pets are usually always happy and accept most anything you dish out.

The greatest leader is an "enlightened despot". Trouble is, their lights go out before they do. Most people don't know what they need in the future nor are they willing to make sacrifices to acheive it. Most political leaders today are only concerned about the next election, so they cannot make hard decisions.

What we need, my friends, is a place to go have a beer and figure this thing out...... but we'd probably end up throwing beer bottles. <wry grin>

[redkitty]

I am tired of hearing people use "you can't change human nature" as a reason to support bad policy. That's just intellectual laziness speaking. Yes, man is an animal. A SOCIAL animal. In part, that means that we are competitive and selfish, but it also means that cooperation is just as fundamental in our makeup. It's completely a matter of choice which road we take.

Never mind the soon-to-be-dead bodies, let's talk about return on investment. The monetary cost of this war is estimated at 80-100 billion dollars for a best-case scenario, if the campaign is short and decisive. And that doesn't count reconstruction costs in Iraq which will be likely be several hundred billion more. Now, the United Nations (UNICEF) has estimated that unmet global needs for basic food, healthcare, sanitation and education could be addressed for around 40 billion. Even if their estimate is off by a factor of ten, can there be any doubt that this would be a better investment in our long-term security than what we are now embarking on? Shared prosperity is the only real deterrent to war over the long haul.

Please don't delude yourself that you're a realist and I'm a bleeding-heart pacifist. On the contrary, in general I'm a vile-tempered misanthrope and from what I've seen, most of the people who are supporting this power grab are simply ill-informed (hey, we can still be friends... I know your intentions are good. ) Unfortunately, our social-animal nature also makes it easy to herd us into groups and lead us around by the nose. If I have a tendency to rave (and I do), it's because I'm so frustrated at seeing this tactic succeed time and time again.




P.S. JackDynne, you want to know where those anthrax letters came from? Unknown, but we are pretty certain where the anthrax itself originated. Genetic analysis indicates that it likely came from a single U.S. military source: the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Disease (USAMRIID) at Fort Detrick, Md. and may have been processed at the Dugway Proving Ground military research facility in Utah. --http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A49502-2001Dec15?language=printer

It may or may not be significant that the anthrax letters were sent to Democrats and members of the "liberal" media rather than to representatives of the party in power. Ya think Saddam or Osama have a special hard-on for the Dems? It is true, of course, that both of them used to work hand-in-glove with the Bush gang....

[kamikazee]

Quote:

Well maybe you can enlighten me old wise one, while your supporting the troops infront of your puter, and dont say the kurds, cause that dont wash, tell us why it wasnt finished before, tell us why one man justifies killing hundreds, or even thousands, tell us why the attention is now on Saddam, when the biggest man hunt was for Laden, well according to Bush, tell us who is going to pay again to rebuild the country after its bombed out, tell us what the US is doing to halt the madness in Palestine, the persecution of . Eastern Tibetans by the Chinese............I could go on, but it might disturb your flag waving........Get real this aint some god dam football team

Not that I owe you an explanation you ass, but I was there for the first one and my son is there for this one, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

And I gues you've never heard of national security? How many times do we have to be attacked before we defend ourselves,? Maybe next time they can hit your home town? what do you think?

And it wasn't done right the first time because that useless body you call the UN said NO, but this time they aren't involved.

[harrytoole]

I agree with you kamikazee. The UN is spineless. It has been almost 12 years of lies and deceit from Iraq. More resolutions and diplomacy should have been thrown out the window years ago. It's only now that we have a President with the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what everyone knows is happening a take action.

[KingCobra]

I've read and followed this thread and can't really add much more than what has been previously mentioned here other than BearCat named the thread correctly "It has begun"

I only hope we are all still friends and continue our mission to assist others in our common interest, COMPUTERS!

[tubebuoy]

At this point in time I will NOT close this thread. But, I remind you, there is NO FLAMING at BetaOne. If I see any more posts like "Yo! XYZ! You're an ASS!". This thread WILL be CLOSED!

I know it's hard to respect people who don't have a clue but PLEASE use your intellect to enlighten them.

Thank you.