Help Protect The Pledge Of Allegaince

[redkitty]

*sigh*

...here we go round the mulberry bush, ta dum da dum...

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god as used is generic.

Nope. Nothing generic about it, unless you are very parochial in your worldview. God (capital G) as used in the Pledge, etc. refers to a monotheistic deity as is found in the various sects of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Plenty of other religions share no such belief, never mind atheists like myself who think the whole religion thing is both silly and dangerous (nothing personal). Besides, if the usage was that meaningless, what would be the point of it? Might as well be praying to the Easter Bunny (no offense to all you bunny worshipers ).

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It may have been an add-in but it was done by the laws that govern us.

Yep. Which makes something legal unless/until it is challenged in the courts and found unconstitutional. This is an attempt to use the issue in dispute as an argument. Does not compute.

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our fore fathers wanted to get away from religious persecution

Some of them did, yes. Many others were transported from debtor's prison or what have you. Of course a lot of the religious types were eager to start doing their own persecuting as soon as they got over here. How is this relevant, anyway? If someone prefers not to officially enshrine your religious practices, is he persecuting you? Don't think so...

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no matter how you feel it all comes down to the majority rules.

Actually, most of the measures in the bill of rights were intended to protect the individual from the majority. Or so we are told, anyway. Maybe you have a different notion.

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no one forces anyone to believe in anything

Well, no, that isn't really possible, is it? What you can do is pressure others to participate in public religious rituals so as to validate your particular private beliefs as the "official" norm.

I'm actually not inclined to be fanatical about church/state separation. I don't mind some official recognition of people's sentiments, a la creche scenes at Xmas and the like. Trouble is, some people, you give them an inch and they start thinking they've got exclusive rights to the place. When you say "our" Pledge of Allegiance or "our" money, just which "us" are you referring to? Also, it's perfectly appalling that so many people can't seem to grasp the difference between speaking as a private citizen and speaking in an official capacity. I would prefer to think that my fellow citizens are not so dense. <_<

"...as the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." -- from the Treaty of Tripoli (1797), negotiated under George Washington and signed under John Adams

[Darkwolven]

reply to Kamikazee:

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BUT there is SUPPOSED to be separation of church and state

No there is not period, the government will not mandate an official religion period, god as used is generic.
Find where this is written in our constitution or bill of rights, I believe I pasted it in one of my posts, hell read the federalist papers and see how much has really changed and if you want to see how radical it could have been. Do the research. It may have been an add-in but it was done by the laws that govern us. Lets not forget we in part exist because our fore fathers wanted to get away from religious persecution, and no matter how you feel it all comes down to the majority rules.

You obviously did not go to the same school I did. Separation of church and state was a fundamental concept taught in elementary school. Where were you or were you sleeping? Separation of church and state WAS intended from the beginning. Do you think somebody just made it up? What does mandating a specific religion have to do with keeping a separation of Church and State. Nothing. They are two separate issues and OF COURSE government will not mandate an official religion. Do you think they want to lose their percentage of voters that are from alternate religions? HELL no! God is NOT used as generic. Reread the dollar bill or the Pledge. Both instances, if printed properly in their official current state, spell God with a capital G. The only time God is written in a generic sense, it is with a lower case g. God pertains to the "one true GOD" of the Christian religion. Possibly a Judiac God as well, but I don't pretend to speak for them. I know little about Judaism. Attempting to claim God as god in the pledge and in currency is utter BS. Anybody who says otherwise is trying to dilute the argument to get the phrase to stay in the pledge and on the money.

FYI, the original writing of Thomas Jefferson was written as:

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"I contemplate with solemn reverence the act of the whole American people
which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting the
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus
building a wall of separation between church and state."

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saying that there is no real separation of church and state a reasonable excuse to demand that everybody pray in school or force atheists or Jews to claim something that they don't believe in or to force it on money? Because YOU believe in it? HOW SELFISH! That's like forcing a non-smoker to sit in the smoking section of a crowded restaurant because YOU deem it the right and correct thing!!

No one tells anyone to pray in schools they take a moment of silence for reflection, no one forces anyone to believe in anything, You are the selfish one that you would deny someone who wants to pray in school to pray, you can't be still or quiet for a moment to reflect on something important to you, so everyone can't, so 1 person out of 30 doesn't want to say the pledge, that's fine they can stand in silence and contemplate while the other 29 say the pledge and you call me selfish because I allow the 29 to say the pledge, I don't think you even know what the word means. Be glad you can even voice your opinion about your own government, others don't have that right.

YOU sir are the selfish one for putting words into my mouth! This is what I meant about trolling in the Bush thread. You deliberately stir up trouble. Here, you are doing it by putting words into my mouth. I never said remove prayer from school. Stand in silence? That is your answer to the problem? Why do you suppose that separate prayer rooms are not used, so that if a student wants to go bow down before Allah, they can do so and then join their class mates? I'll tell you why. Because the Christian constituents of the district would feel uncomfortable. People fear what they don't understand, and one of the things they fear most is that their kids are going to be "turned on" to an alternate religion. In school, it's all about removing influence. Keep the kids Christian. Don't give them a choice. I, for one, am convinced that most of the kids would think it is cool. Keeping them from influence of an alternate religion is like sending them to the proverbial Catholic school. Guess what? When they get their freedom of choice, they're going to switch anyway if they even contemplated it in the first place. I for one wish I would have been introduced to Buddhism before. Not that I want to become a buddhist, but they have some incredible philosophies. I for one grew up Catholic, became "born again", and then went "non-denominational" because I hate the crap the organized religion pulls. I could tell you tons of inhumane stuff that was done in the name of Christianity, but I'm not going to go into that. If you want an interesting read, look up the history of Christianity some time on Google. For some people, organized religion is great. Some people need to be part of a "flock". People need religion some times, but for christ sake, don't force Christianity down on everybody. When I grew up, we were forced to pray in school. The only compromise that Christianity has allowed is silent meditation. WHY are non-Christians forced to Pledge their loyalty to the US AND to GOD? What horrible catastrophe is going to befall the US if the phrase "under God" is removed from the Pledge and from currency? I'll tell you what. Absolutely nothing...

[redkitty]

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What horrible catastrophe is going to befall the US if the phrase "under God" is removed from the Pledge and from currency?

Why, we'd likely turn into a bunch of commie pinkos ... sort of like the early Christians!?

Wait, now, I'm getting all turned around... which side am I supposed to be on again?