Source :
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...084275,00.html


So now what ?
There are still many western reporters left in Bagdad, that was not able to pass the border today,
and they are all told to stay at their appointed hotels.

Yea my uncle is there bombing the shit out of them. :)

F15-E :)

So if u see this u better run. :P

Yeah, woohoo woohoo! KILL!!! Jippy KILL!!!

:(

/me hates war!!!

Lets make a big parking lot of iraq

Mad*}{* LOL

Sorry guys i dont see this as funny..

There are one guy that can be a danger not the hole iraqi people..

Soo all please stop to say funny things about this issue,It can be verry dangures to us all ..

PittPull

I agree with pittpull. This is bad business and these first strikes are to knock out defenses in Southern Iraq, all with a design to limit killing. Lets hope it's short and no innocent civilians are hurt.

Agreed, i want sicko tyrant out of there as much as the next guy but its not a laughing matter. Our soldiers live's are on the line here not to mention the lives of millions of civilians. It makes me wonder wether a snipers bullet could do the same as what this war will accomplish

So they have bomed the shit out of Afganistan for the sake of one man, and now aftyer that has failed they are bombing the crap out of Iraq again, for another man

This aint war this is madness, its a turkey shoot, and the only ones to suffer are the ordinary folks like you and I..........and now the bullshit flies.......media propaganda

We are on terrorist allert !!!

Yea anything to justify Blood for Oil

Well it does'nt wash with me, most dangerous people as I see it is Bush and Blair.......lets drop them F***kers on Bahgdad

And meanwhile Bin Laden is laughing his bollox off

Funny how the man has been forgotten about, or he is in a country where the Turkey has the upper hand ?

Only saviour here is Both these lying pieces of dog sh*t will never be voted in again, but that wont bring back the dead

@ Mad Parking Lot ? ........... I trust you will be one of the first to go in to shovel the remains of the women and children into black plastic bags.............

Well its begun and lets all hope its finished as quickly as possible without too much loss of innocent life. :(

If you want to help Iraq so much be my guest why don't you just head on over and lend a hand, oh wait luckily for you your safe at home spewing hate.

Lets drop yer arse on Bagdad, this isn't about Blair or Bush but thats beside the point now. This is about our family and friends taking out a tyrant and liberating a country. It's time to support our troops and hope for a quick resolution.

Agreed.

I want Saddam out of Iraq just as much as the next person, but was it really worth risking the lives of millions of people for? Sure, we can bomb things to hopefully reduce the lives that are lost, but it's like a friend of mine, who was in Vietnam, told me this morning, in a war, nothing is for certain, and plans change once the first shot is fired.

I wish we could have just sent a sniper in there to take him out too, instead of risking the lives of US and British soldiers, plus the millions of innocents living in Iraq. I'm like Cactus, I hate war. I don't think Bush is completely right for doing it, and I disagree with quite a few of the things he has said and how things have happened, but let's face it, he did what had to be done. I just hope they finish the job this time, quickly, without many casualties, so people can return to a normal life. That is what's important here.

pinning this...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?vts=031920031945

There have been numerous snipers sent there. There are a whole lot of things going on behind the scenes, that none of us know about, and for that fact things you probably dont want to know about. Saddam Husein is a very bad man and unforchantly he is in a position of command. There are reportedly at least nine perfect "clones" of saddam, he is not an easy man to get. There are Marine Force Recon, Special Forces, US Army Rangers, Navy Seals, Delta Force, and other special forces from our allies, and they are trying to flush out saddam. The problem is that there are numerous hiding places, underground bunkers and many other barriers. The US and Great Britan are attempting to minimize the sivilian casualities and prehaps turn saddams own troops against him. Our best chance of getting saddam is turning his own troops against him, basically effecting mutany. I truely believe that what our President is doing is just, and i am glad that we have the ability and the backing of England to go in and remove this awful tyrant from power. Imagine 60 years ago, would any of you be complaining about the removal of Adolf Hitler? Or Joseph Stalen? Think about it, Saddam Husein has effectively committed genocide, he has murdered over 100,000 and counting of his own people. Murder is still a crime, isn't it? In war there will be causualties, although unforchant, necessary for the common good. There is only one road and that road is the removal of Saddam by ANY NECESSARY FORCE. Saddam is a clear and present danger and there for should be removed. Let god be with our president and with our men and women fighting for our freedom. Good luck and god speed, come home soon, come home alive, but realize that those who died, died for the greater good.

Well maybe you can enlighten me old wise one, while your supporting the troops infront of your puter, and dont say the kurds, cause that dont wash, tell us why it wasnt finished before, tell us why one man justifies killing hundreds, or even thousands, tell us why the attention is now on Saddam, when the biggest man hunt was for Laden, well according to Bush, tell us who is going to pay again to rebuild the country after its bombed out, tell us what the US is doing to halt the madness in Palestine, the persecution of . Eastern Tibetans by the Chinese............I could go on, but it might disturb your flag waving........Get real this aint some god dam football team

I doubt this will be a swift campaign that everyone is hoping for. I hope that they don't make the same mistake as they did 12 years ago and leave him be.

With regard to clones, they can only be look-alikes ... or is that what you meant?

Why is that? Their lives don't count? Tell that to the dead Kurdish families

It was. The UN guidelines were to liberate Kuwait, not invade Iraq.

Proven ties to terrorists + the threat of biological weapons. I wonder where those anthrax letters came from?

It sure is not. Try not to let emotion get in the way of logical thinking, as evidenced by your previous posts - Hate is the path toward the dark side. :angry:

How quickly we all forget how the world shifted less than a year ago :(
War is ALWAYS a last option, go ask Saddam why he did not disarm. <_<
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Her hair was up in a ponytail, Her favorite dress tied with a bow.
Today was Daddy's Day at school, And she couldn't wait to go.

But her mommy tried to tell her, That she probably should stay home.
Why the kids might not understand, If she went to school alone.

But she was not afraid, She knew just what to say.
What to tell her classmates, Of why he wasn't there today.

But still her mother worried, For her to face this day alone.
And that was why once again, She tried to keep her daughter home.

But the little girl went to school, Eager to tell them all.
About a dad she never see, A dad who never calls.

There were daddies along the wall in back, For everyone to meet.
Children squirming impatiently, Anxious in their seats.

One by one the teacher called, A student from the class.
To introduce their daddy, As seconds slowly passed.

At last the teacher called her name, Every child turned to stare.
Each of them was searching, For a man who wasn't there.

"Where's her daddy at?", She heard a boy call out.
"She probably doesn't have one," Another student dared to shout.

And from somewhere near the back, She heard a daddy say,
"Looks like another deadbeat dad, Too busy to waste his day."

The words did not offend her, As she smiled up at her Mom.
And looked back at her teacher, Who told her to go on.

And with hands behind her back, Slowly she began to speak.
And out from the mouth of a child, Came words incredibly unique.

"My Daddy couldn't be here, Because he lives so far away.
But I know he wishes he could be, Since this is such a special day.

And though you cannot meet him, I wanted you to know.
All about my daddy, And how much he loves me so.

He loved to tell me stories, He taught me to ride my bike.
He surprised me with pink roses, And taught me to fly a kite.

We used to share fudge sundaes, And ice cream in a cone.
And though you cannot see him, I'm not standing here alone.

"Cause my daddy's always with me, Even though we are apart
I know because he told me, He'll forever be in my heart"

With that, her little hand reached up, And lay across her chest.
Feeling her own heartbeat, Beneath her favorite dress.

And from somewhere in the crowd of dads, Her mother stood in tears.
Proudly watching her daughter, Who was wise beyond her years.

For she stood up for the love, Of a man not in her life.
Doing what was best for her, Doing what was right.

And when she dropped her hand back down, Staring straight into the crowd.
She finished with a voice so soft, But its message clear and loud.

"I love my daddy very much, He's my shining star.
And if he could, he'd be here, But heaven's just too far.

You see he was a fireman, And died just this past year
When airplanes hit the towers, And taught Americans to fear.

But sometimes when I close my eyes, It's like he never went away."
And then she closed her eyes, And saw him there that day.

And to her mother's amazement, She witnessed with surprise.
A room full of daddies and children, All starting to close their eyes.

Who knows what they saw before them, Who knows what they felt inside.
Perhaps for merely a second, They saw him at her side.

"I know you're with me Daddy," To the silence she called out.
And what happened next made believers, Of those once filled with doubt.

Not one in that room could explain it, For each of their eyes had been closed.
But there on the desk beside her, Was a fragrant long-stemmed pink rose.

And a child was blessed, if only for a moment, By the love of her shining bright star.
And given the gift of believing, That heaven is never too far.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Utopia is just not possible due to the inherent nature of human beings. Take care m8.

/JD

Very moving quote JD.

As for the question if the war is right or wrong; each one has his or her own opinion. Let us not try to force our opinion or believes on one another. Let us rather pray for all the innocent victims.

Cheerz
Dave B)

Yes very thought provoking JD, and a reminder to the whole nation WHY we are at war, and what we are fighting for.

Q for all -> "Utopia is just not possible due to the inherent nature of human beings."
Why can't we change our nature? That sounds foolish and unworthy, however if we finally commit to each other, to the benefit of each other, not using government, but just being able to trust each other completely.

Its a silly idealist dream of mine to belong to a global village where the major of its people are not greedy, and love to give and share.

Glad to see I'm not the only one with dreams Cyberion.

No offense JD, but if you repeat the "Utopia is just not possible due to the inherent nature of human beings." enough people will start believing it, and they won't even try to change. People's nature is somthing that they learned, it's not something that is in our genes.

It's a shame how some people act. War is always a sad thing, yet some people seem to enjoy it. Even though Sadam needs to be ditched there is absolutly no reason to feel happy, justified or even proud of this war. It's often those same feeling that start wars or situations that may lead to wars.

Today 5 people died and many were injured, some of them completely innocent, but Sadam hasn't been caucht yet. I see no joy in that, nor could I ever feel proud about that. In the mean while the amount of money spend on it could feed many hungry mouth for month . . .

No offense taken :)

I too have no yearning or joy for war. It's just an unfortunate fact that sometimes the only option is that of force. Believe me, I take no satisfaction in violent force of any kind and personally try to avoid it at ALL costs. I would love to live in a Utopia where all we have to do is enjoy life. But I am also a realist, perhaps a bit too jaded by the diurnal nature of our species, who "don't check appearance but I check the way you call 'em" (Pato Baton) and have seen the good and evil, the yin and yang, of pretty much our race as a whole.

Think about it, in the many thousands of years that we have "progressed" we are essentially the same, governed by many primal urges and impulses that really have not changed. We ARE animals at heart. There is just no way around it, it got us this far, and it's a shame that this far is all we are at, but it seems to be a constant that is cycllic in nature. Take a look through history and you will see that the constants don't change, only variables such as technology and society.

I agree. But that may just be part of the price we have to pay; for example how can you laugh if you don't know what it is to cry, how can you smile if you don't know what it is to frown, how can there be a heaven if there is no hell, how can there be matter if there is no anti-matter? Maybe we are just victims of the physics of our universe, its bipolar nature.

I have dreams too, not only for us but for our children and our children's children, so when you guys find that Utopia please drop me a line as I will be trying to find it myself and may be a bit distracted :)

:) Carpe Diem my friends, may we all get through this latest chapter in human existence and forge better roads to the future :)

/JD

Humans cannot change their nature, a cat cannot change its nature, nor can a rotweiller dog. They all have the same underlying nature specific to itself. For a change to actually occur it would take some sort of force that works against nature.

After a 30 year career as an expatriate employee, 10 years for a US company and 20 for a French company, spending time in many countries, including the mid-East and Asia, I learned that a family with no material wealth who live in a yurt in the Takla Makan Desert under a severe Communist regime can be as wildly happy as millionaires who live in villas in Cannes or mansions in Beverly Hills. It is neither the government, nor the wealth that is the key to happiness.

I lament that people/governments are not terribly understanding. Once they make up their minds about something/someone, they rarely will stand back, reconsider, and alter their thinking. Since the press has little of interest to report on the progress of the "war", they have been doing many intereviews with people/agencies who are assisting in providing goods and services in Iraq and elsewhere. It is reassuring to note the tremendous amount of compassion exhibited by people from many countries who work behind the scenes--People who do this work out of compassion--not material reward

Lets hope that the government leaders have some productive negotiations going on behind the scenes that will bring a less destructive conclusion to this business. I am cynical because I sense the strong hand of big corporate interests.

Maybe we cannot change our nature for the moment. In long terms there is no need of any special force though - evolution (not on the schedule in all American schools as I understand it) will go on.
Now different humans have reached different levels and it will always be frustrating for some to see other act more like reptils than humans. Different perspectives...

So, what we can do is make decisions. Whatever stage of personal and specie-related development you have reached you have the ability to communicate and think. (Which btw make humans something different from animals.) This means that those making decisions (like "Now it's time to kill a lot of Iraque people - they can have it as their dictator nowadays is such an annoying prick") listen to what other more civilized habitants say. The day most Americans, Britons and Europeans claim a stop of the illegal war acts going on they actually also will stop - and the evolution has taken another step upon the very long road leading to peace, cooperation, health, knowledge, democrazy and intergalactic spacetravels.

Finally I quote myself:

"We shouldn't need to much of ancient history endlessly repeated to realize that peace is a very fragile condition, easily threatened by local actions. I feel sorry for all those that will loose life or health in the future due to politics of today. Every great leader should strive for anything but war."

You got a point unicorn. Trouble is, people have short memories. It's why kids don't listen to their parents. ...and it's why people tend to like their pets more than their kids. Pets are usually always happy and accept most anything you dish out.

The greatest leader is an "enlightened despot". Trouble is, their lights go out before they do. Most people don't know what they need in the future nor are they willing to make sacrifices to acheive it. Most political leaders today are only concerned about the next election, so they cannot make hard decisions.

What we need, my friends, is a place to go have a beer and figure this thing out...... but we'd probably end up throwing beer bottles. <wry grin>

:angry: I am tired of hearing people use "you can't change human nature" as a reason to support bad policy. That's just intellectual laziness speaking. Yes, man is an animal. A SOCIAL animal. In part, that means that we are competitive and selfish, but it also means that cooperation is just as fundamental in our makeup. It's completely a matter of choice which road we take.

Never mind the soon-to-be-dead bodies, let's talk about return on investment. The monetary cost of this war is estimated at 80-100 billion dollars for a best-case scenario, if the campaign is short and decisive. And that doesn't count reconstruction costs in Iraq which will be likely be several hundred billion more. Now, the United Nations (UNICEF) has estimated that unmet global needs for basic food, healthcare, sanitation and education could be addressed for around 40 billion. Even if their estimate is off by a factor of ten, can there be any doubt that this would be a better investment in our long-term security than what we are now embarking on? Shared prosperity is the only real deterrent to war over the long haul.

Please don't delude yourself that you're a realist and I'm a bleeding-heart pacifist. On the contrary, in general I'm a vile-tempered misanthrope and from what I've seen, most of the people who are supporting this power grab are simply ill-informed (hey, we can still be friends... I know your intentions are good. :) ) Unfortunately, our social-animal nature also makes it easy to herd us into groups and lead us around by the nose. If I have a tendency to rave (and I do), it's because I'm so frustrated at seeing this tactic succeed time and time again.




P.S. JackDynne, you want to know where those anthrax letters came from? Unknown, but we are pretty certain where the anthrax itself originated. Genetic analysis indicates that it likely came from a single U.S. military source: the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Disease (USAMRIID) at Fort Detrick, Md. and may have been processed at the Dugway Proving Ground military research facility in Utah. --http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A49502-2001Dec15?language=printer

It may or may not be significant that the anthrax letters were sent to Democrats and members of the "liberal" media rather than to representatives of the party in power. Ya think Saddam or Osama have a special hard-on for the Dems? It is true, of course, that both of them used to work hand-in-glove with the Bush gang.... ;)

Not that I owe you an explanation you ass, but I was there for the first one and my son is there for this one, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

And I gues you've never heard of national security? How many times do we have to be attacked before we defend ourselves,? Maybe next time they can hit your home town? what do you think?

And it wasn't done right the first time because that useless body you call the UN said NO, but this time they aren't involved.

I agree with you kamikazee. The UN is spineless. It has been almost 12 years of lies and deceit from Iraq. More resolutions and diplomacy should have been thrown out the window years ago. It's only now that we have a President with the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what everyone knows is happening a take action.

I've read and followed this thread and can't really add much more than what has been previously mentioned here other than BearCat named the thread correctly "It has begun"

I only hope we are all still friends and continue our mission to assist others in our common interest, COMPUTERS! :unsure:

At this point in time I will NOT close this thread. But, I remind you, there is NO FLAMING at BetaOne. If I see any more posts like "Yo! XYZ! You're an ASS!". This thread WILL be CLOSED!

I know it's hard to respect people who don't have a clue but PLEASE use your intellect to enlighten them.

Thank you.

As long as everyone expressing an opinion in this thread can live with the fact that our opinions all vary, this might be a good way to vent at such a volatile time.

But just remember, this thread is unique to this website, and doesn't have any relevance to what BetaOne is here for. So as long as we can express ourselves without hostility toward our fellow members, and maintain respect for each other, go on by all means.

:)

Hmm so that would be akin to yin/yang diurnal nature.

I hear yah Tube ;)

The rest of you buoys let's stick to the rules or this can easily get out of control.

@ redkitty: I am planting some flowers in my backyard for you. They are very pretty.

/JD

Respect is where you accept someones optinion without being derogatory about it. Our little community is mature enough to share clues without making smart-ass remarks, or so I would hope.

@KC You recognise real friends by the respect they give you. I believe that says it all!

It has begun. Please let it end.

"Please don't delude yourself that you're a realist and I'm a bleeding-heart pacifist. On the contrary, in general I'm a vile-tempered misanthrope and from what I've seen, most of the people who are supporting this power grab are simply ill-informed"

I would suggest, anyone who thinks this war is a "power grab" is simply "Ill-informed" The USA does NOT engage in wars of conquest. Kuwait was returned to the Kuwaities, Japan was returned to Japan, Germany was returned to Germany,etc.

Iraq will be returned to Iraq and Saddam will be gone! The people of Iraq will say "Thank you USA, for ending the murder and torture." Don't believe me? Keep watching the news.

One more thing, as a Viet Namn anti-war protester, I am VERY SAD to see todays American anti-war protesters. We protested Viet Namn after YEARS of lies and phoney 'body counts' created to delude us into thinking we were winning a war our government was afraid to prosecute for fear China would feed millions of thier 'children' into action to defeat us.

Todays American protesters seem to fall in to two groups...

1. A bunch of kids who think Bill Clinton was 'cool' and Bush 'Sux' and have nothing better to do but raise hell. (where were they/you durring Kosavo? [Clinton's war] )

And...

2. A bunch of old hippies gathering for "One Last Hurrah!" (Look out for the Brown acid! It's a bad trip!) And who also seem to want to perform oral sex on Bill Clinton.

Beyond sad, beyond pathetic.

Ahhhhhh Tube, i really do love your posts :D So damn refreshing :P

Keep your eye's on the Food-for-Oil resolution set before the UN, Kofi Annan has watered it down but its still a realdoozy :lol:

Well tubeuoy, I guess you aren't talking to me. ;) Unfortunately, I'm a long way past being a kid and I despised that weasel Clinton from the first time I heard him open his mouth (but the current Liar-in-Chief is much worse in every way). As for hippies, I was always too much of a rationalist and too fond of personal hygeine to get down with them.

Viet Nam? I'm glad you learned that you were being lied to, even if it took years. Took me years, too, but I was younger then. Now you are being lied to again, so why wait years to find it out? Back then, I too bought the line about us "not prosecuting" that war, but judging from the tonnage of bombs we dropped and the number of people killed, I really don't think you can say there was any lack of zeal on our part.

Japan and Germany? That was half a century ago, and that operation was run by New Dealers, not a bunch of Reich-wing thugs. Kuwait is a Bush business partner and last I looked, still not a democracy. What do you say we talk about Afghanistan instead? Or Haiti, Columbia, Chile, Argentina. If you look past the rhetoric, democracy has seldom been our objective in recent years, not even in the US itself.

Truth is, I'm more worried about consequences on the home front and in international relations than I am about Iraq. Told you, I ain't no bleedin' heart. Whichever way this event turns out for Iraq (and I hope some good comes of it), I'm thinking it will be bad for the US, for many reasons.

Hey JackDynne!Uh... I wasn't going to say anything, but I don't think "diurnal" is the word you're looking for. :D Never mind, I know what you mean. As I said, it's a choice. After a long and bloody history, Europe finally seems to be learning that lesson. Why haven't we?

Flowers, Jack? :huh: I'm not as spry as I used to be, but I'm not ready to check out just yet, thanks.

Here are a couple of interesting opinion pieces -- one from a pro-war leftist and one by an anti-war right-winger. Both are worth a read.

*http://www.salon.com/books/int/2003/...man/index.html

*http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/...0-75800736.htm


tubebuoy -
Maybe I should clarify something. I never said anything about a "war of conquest". I said "power grab" and I stand by that. As for most war supporters being ill-informed, that doesn't even necessarily pertain to whether a war in Iraq is a good idea or not (I think not). A recent poll indicated that a large percentage of Americans now believe that it was Iraq that flew the planes into the Trade Center**. That level of ignorance is not an accident and if it doesn't scare you it damn well should.

** Gallup, Mar 3, 03 -- 51% believe that Saddam Hussein was personally involved

redkittycat,

The flowers are not for when you check out. They are just very pretty and remind me of you. :)

Btw- Read any Phillip K. Dick novels lately?

/JD

Nah, Jack, Phil Dick is too surreal for me... too much like real life. I prefer a little escapism in my fiction.

Speaking of SF, when I was a kid I enjoyed reading social satire from the forties and fifties by the likes of C. M. Kornbluth and Robert Sheckley. Cautionary tales, but far-out enough to be funny. Nowadays, I see similar stuff reported in the daily paper. Like a hereditary idiot appointed to the Oval Office. Like a US Office of Disinformation. Like corporations openly writing the laws. Am I the only one who thinks we've gone down the freaking rabbit hole?

Never mind, I think I'll just go play a video game or something.

We've gone down a hole but I would not necessarily call it a rabbit hole.

Life is too short to hate :)

Be careful on what videogame you play, they all can be labeled as propaganda in some fashion. :D

/JD