A Petition Supporting a Constitutional Amendment to Protect the Pledge of Allegiance and Our National Motto:

http://www.wepledge.com/pledge_petition.asp

Guys please sign it. It is so sad that it has came to this, but it has.

Just three individuals - one atheist and two radical, liberal judges - have ruled it "unconstitutional" for school children to say the Pledge of Allegiance!

Next we can expect them to ban our nation's motto: "In God We Trust."

Governors who have endorsed the Constitutional Amendment:

Gov. Mike Foster, Jr. ®, Louisiana
Gov. Mike Huckabee ®, Arkansas
Gov. Ronnie Musgrove (D), Mississippi
Gov. Bob Riley ®, Alabama
Gov. Mike Johanns ®, Nebraska
Gov. Bill Owens ®, Colorado
Gov. Bob Taft ®, Ohio
Gov. John Hoeven ®, North Dakota
Gov. John G. Rowland ®, Connecticut
Gov. Judy Martz ®, Montana
Gov. George Pataki ®, New York
Gov. Dirk Kempthorne ®, Idaho
Gov. Jeb Bush ®, Florida
Gov. Rick Perry ®, Texas
Gov. Bob Wise (D), West Virginia

Lt. Governors who have endorsed the Constitutional Amendment:

Amy Tuck ®, Mississippi
Mary Fallin ®, Oklahoma
Diego T. Benavente ®, Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands
Brad Owen (D), Washington
Margaret Farrow ®, Wisconsin
David Heineman ®, Nebraska
Joseph B. Meyer ®, Sec. of State, Wyoming
Winthrop Rockefeller ®, Arkansas
Kathleen B. Blanco (D), Louisiana
Jack Dalrymple ®, North Dakota
John O. Bennett ®, Senate Pres., New Jersey
Loren Leman ®, Alaska
Karl Ohs ®, Montana

Read This:

http://www.wepledge.com/purpose.asp

This proposed Constitutional Amendment will protect our Pledge of Allegiance and our National Motto and will prohibit judges from declaring them illegal.

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:

Section 1. The first article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States shall not be construed to prohibit the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, which shall be, 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'.

Section 2. The first article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States shall not be construed to prohibit the recitation or use of the national motto, which shall be, 'In God we trust'.

Thanks for this post and I'm glad to sign. Oh ya, I gave them the wrong e-mail address. I feel sorry for John@yahoo.com :lol:

signed

signed, by myself and my wife, thankyou.

Ill sign. We used to do that when I was in grade school. Nothing wrong with it

This is an untrue statement. It is the term "under god" that was objected to. I am one person of MILLIONS in this country (jewish) that does not have god or jesus in our core beliefs. Does this make me less of an American? even after 4 years in the USMC?
The P.O.A. should NOT be mandatory in schools as I beleive patriotism omes from the heart and not from any rote recital of an inaccurate verse.

Zo


War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things;
the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic
feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is
much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is
willing to fight, nothing which is more important
than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature
and has no chance of being free unless made and kept
so by the exertions of better men than himself.

I don't believe in God, so I don't think people should be forced to "Trust God". If it's optional, then I have no issue at all with the Pledge. Freedom of religion or the choice not to practice a religion is one of the great things about a secular society like ours.

I do have a question for all you supporters of this petition: What if the pledge used "In Allah We Trust"? How then would you feel? Would you want your little Christian or Jewish children to go to a school where that was the pledge? I would assume you don't have ANY problem with students who follow Allah to change the wording to fit their beliefs, correct? Or allow the followers of any of the thousands of religions of the world who attend U.S. schools to substitute whatever term they use to identify their religious leaders. Or are you just hypocrites???

Not everyone calls the higher being they believe in "God".

Of course the elephant in the room is religious bigotry. One religion is NOT superior to any other. Like I said, as long as the Pledge is optional, I have no issue. Otherwise, we start to cross the line and become a religious state like those in the Middle East so many love to hate.

There are good reasons for the separation of church and state.

Sorry. I prefer the original national motto, "E Pluribus Unum" and the original version of the Pledge which, although written by a minister, did NOT include any reference to a god.


'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'
-- written by Francis Bellamy , a Baptist minister, in August 1892
(maybe he had in mind that the New England Puritans used to hang Baptists)

"E Pluribus Unum" (out of many, one) -- from the Great Seal of the United States, first used on Sept 16, 1782.

A Short History of the Pledge of Allegiance: http://www.ifx.net/~wjohnson/pledge.htm

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

i think it should be removed.. the original (as redkitty quoted) should be restored. I do not beleive in a higher being (ie god) or any religion for that matter. I would not want one of my kids (when i have any) be forced to say the pledge in its current state

All,

Just to set matters straight there is no such thing as,

"the separation of church and state."

except in the minds of activist judges who prefer to mold the Constitution to their ideas rather than interpret the original intent of our Founding Fathers. Contrary to what most people (now) think the first amendment says, the "no establishment clause" was only intended to prevent the Federal government from establishing a national denomination. It was never in their wildest dreams intended to actually keep religious and governmental activities separate from one another. This evidenced by numerous examples of the Congress stopping for prayer sessions to resolve difficult matters and judges (really!) who would strongly urge condemned criminals to get right with God before being executed. Interestingly, it was generally accepted that testimony from atheists was inadmissible in court since there was no "fear of God" to discourage false testimony.

In general, I reject the arguments against mixing religion and government because despite what people claim, non-believers ARE NOT being damaged or hurt by this. They may feel guilty because they they have rejected God, but I consider that a good (and natural) thing for them to feel. I have no fear of your differing beliefs (or non-belief), neither should you fear (or attempt to restrict) mine in God.

Tomboy

Where does it stop? Look at the USA coins, bills, court rooms. The quote "In GOD We Trust" is everywhere. Why not cancel Christmas as a national holiday, after all it's the birth of Jesus. I think things should be left the way they are and our government should worry about other things.

I do believe in GOD and I say that NOT trying to offend anyone. People are free to believe and do what they want. There is currently no way that anyone can prove to another person that GOD is real. It's very simple and no amount of fighting will prove either way.

Well first of all the Pledge of Allegiance has never been manatory and never will be. If a shcool does that then please sue by all means. Public anyways.

Anyways I believe the Pledge should stay as it is.

And my problem is not about school children saying it. Everything else like when you die and everything.

I just saw on fox news that some guy got fired because he said the god part an a funeral. Even after the family requested. See how stupid it has become.

I am sorry but 3/4 of the world believe in a "god". Look it up. It is not ment has the cristion god. Just any god in general. And who said you have to say the bledge.

Thats what I want to know. Please compaling about having to say it. Yet I see no prove that u were forced to ever say the pledge. Shit we dont even say it in college. Never. Not once.

Just like praying. I think you should be able to pray anytime u want at school as long as its private. Meaning not in class or anything like that.

Once again its all about money. Dont kid yourself if u think its any different. Everything is about money. Shit if i were to run for presdient there is no way in hell i would win. WHy? Not rich. Did not got to fucking big ass school like harvard. Dont know any in government except my uncle.

America thinks it so free then why the hell do i feel incaged every damn day. I tell u why its because everything evolvoes around money. Shit did u know that a governement offical can not be charged with a mistermean if he/she is on their way to a meating. And if a coy stops them they can be fired right then and there. Dont believe me look it up.

See how stupid that is. Or u could just pay them off. Thats just one example I am sure u can think of a million more.

THink about this. Somone is charged with a crime. 13 people or maybe only the judge sentece him/her to death. 13 people out of 6 billion say that u die. How fucked up is that? God did not say u die. Shit 13 people. See how said this is. Sometimes i dont know how those people can live with themseleves. Who the faq gave them that right? Um Governement. Damn thats fucked up.

Yea i like live in here and enjoying our freedoms but damn that is fucked up big time. Not to meantion that guy was incent. How about that. 13 people just murdered another human being. I could never have anything to do with it.

Oh and what happens if its your turn to be one of those 13 and u say no. Guess what u are fined and more than likly jail. Damn thats fucked up!!!

See america is not as great as some people say it is. Really makes me sick. THats why and many other reasons why people hate us. Shit I am living here i should know. Some people just need to open there eyes.

Enough for me.

I have no guilt about my beliefs. And I feel mighty "good and natural". Why would I feel guilty about choosing not to believe in a god??? Guilty because I don't always believe what people tell me to believe? Nah, I don't think so.

As long as you don't restrict my choice NOT to believe in a god or try to force me to abide by your religious practices, then we will get along just fine ;)

It's about mutual respect, IMHO, not one side being morally superior to the other and putting up walls to hide behind. Some people can look at and RESPECT both sides of an issue. I could fling out negative statements about how I feel all religions are based on myths and how religion is for weak-minded people and how religious hatred and bigotry has caused many wars and millions of deaths throughout history (ie. WWII), but that get's the discussion nowhere. Mutual respect. Athiests have just as many rights as god-fearing people do. At least in the USA they do :)

By the way, I do actually feel the original lawsuit that brought this Pledge issue to the courts was totally unnecessary. Just don't say "Under God" if it bothers you. This ain't Nazi Germany. No one is forcing you to say it.

Sometimes athiests get bugs stuck up there ass, too! Why can't we just all get along!

Nuf said for me on this polarizing topic.
Peace Out,
MNKid

P.S. To war59312 - If someone murdered someone close to me, you're damn right I'd want to death penalty. Give them society's justice juuuust in case there ain't no god. Call it an insurance policy! My opinion, of course.

This is a pretty heated topic as it is, so hopefully I'm not throwing fuel into the fire by saying this:

My religious convictions have absolutely nothing to do with my political stance. But I do feel that each individual needs to decide for themselves whether they want to choose to mix the two.

You can be devout in your religious affiliation, and be an awful human being. Case in point...Bin Laden.

You can fight to the death for your country, and still be of any religious denomination, or choose not to believe at all.

The pledge has been this way a very long time. Changing it would be a very hard thing for people to accept.

But remember, the country is run by and the rules are made by politicians.

This is one very big reason for people to excersize their right to vote.

OK,

One last note for our unbelieving board members from the Bible:

2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world (i.e. satan) hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Regarding mutual respect for unbelievers, the best I can accord you is tolerance as demanded by our constitution. However, you need not expect me to enjoy or endorse your deliberate decision to reject the gospel and as a consequence go to hell after this life. What a tragedy and a waste!

Tomboy

Just for the record, The 'Pledge' was writen by a socialist and did NOT contaian "under God". "Under God" was added to the pledge by an act of congress.

Purists would insist "under God" be replaced by the original "under Duck".

Until this time, I will not sign the document.

}---:)

I agree with what KingCobra says.

This is all my own opinion, so take it as that. Things have been the way they are now for many many years, it should be left as it is. People DO have the right to believe in any god or religion they want. Hell, if someone wanted to worship an elephant as their god, then so be it, it's their decision to make, not mine, not anybody else's, theirs and their's alone.

And if they don't want to believe in a God at all, that's fine too. In my opinion, we have no definitive way to prove that a god, any god, be it the christian god, Allah, the Greek / Roman / Norse pantheon of gods, Buddah, or any other god you can possibly think of, exists. I think things should be left the way that they are, but if you are uncomfortable saying "God" in the pledge, substitute Allah, Zeus, Buddah, your elephant, (not trying to poke fun at anything, just giving a way exaggerated example of how I feel) or whatever god you worship in it's place. Like I said, it's your right to worship whatever you want to worship. After all, wasn't freedom of religion one of the major reason's the colonists founded the United States in the first place?

Oh, and Tomboy, what exactly do you mean "Unbeleving board members"? I know for fact not everyone here practices Christianity, and I know there's at least several people here who are atheists, so please try to remember that, unless I interpreted what you meant the wrong way :)

" but if you are uncomfortable saying "God" in the pledge, substitute Allah, Zeus, Buddah, your elephant, (not trying to poke fun at anything, just giving a way exaggerated example of how I feel) or whatever god you worship in it's place"

The point is, the ORIGINAL pledge didn't ask ANYONE to pay homage to anything other than the Nation State. "God" (three headed goat) was ADDED on a POLITICAL whim! Asking that "God" be removed from the pledge so as it can be returned to it's orginal intention (a pledge to the State alone) seams a reasonable request. No?

}---:?

No, not when it is not in the mojority's interest, remember this is a panel of judges determining this for us, they are not voted for they are appointed the do not believe in a majority and they do not believe in the people, they are self centered and egotistical, they have their jobs for life, why should they care. Patriotism has to be taught and I believe this is where it starts. The term god as used is generic and the pledge is not mandatory it never has been, the instructions for those that felt uncomfortable, were a spend a moment in contemplation nothing wrong with that. As tomboy stated earlier the constitution does not state anything about the seperation of Church and state it only states that the gov't will not makes laws restricting Americans to any certain religion

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Our Gov't is not a Democracy it is a Republic, and because of this in a land where majority is supposed to rule we have judges that have seen to it that the minority will always rule. Lets not go with the presidential election about a mojority either, because all of you political professors know the reason the president is not decided by popular vote but by the electoral college system, for those of you that don't, the reason the electoral college is used is this, if it we used the popular vote then it would take only 5 states to elect the president and the other 45 states would have no say. Judges should be elected and not appointed, judges are not there to press their beliefs on us, they are not to use their personal feelings to enforce laws either, if they can't seperate their personal feelings from their job then they are in the wrong place.

The term under god was added by our elected officials, whether we like it or not, they were added properly and legally, and now you would have unelected yahoos who answer to no one make our decisions? Does it not bother anyone that the atheist that started this lied to accomplish this? Not only did he lie but he used a (his) child to do it, and his own child does not object to the pledge.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59652,00.html I will post my proof to what I say or at least try to, but here is my proof, I know alot of others don't require it.

As a non-American I don't have any hang ups about misled beliefs that any society is or has been free.

And I suppose as a socialist I am now I suppose a sworn enemy of Tubeboy.

Anyway, why aren't you guys calling for a Constitutional amendment which allows people not born in the US to become President.

Come on say it after me "Arnold for President" :lol:

I think i will go sign it. Two things come to mind when i read this, the first being the quote by Voltaire, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." and the second being the song "I Pledge Allegiance" -- By Red Skelton who's words can be found here: http://home.att.net/~poofcatt/july.html

This debate will go on for eternity because everyone has differnent views, the best solution is to allow a child to choose for him self, and for his decision to not be influenced by anyone. A child's mind will change many times in his or her life, and with those changes will come differences in opinion, and quite possible changes in religious beliefs; for who are we to tell someone what, or who, or how they can or can not believe, that is UnAmerican. This country was built on freedom of expression and freedom of speech, where would we be without it..if we didnot enjoy these freedoms, would we all have met? Would we have an open discussion like this? Would the female members here have the right to be here? Would females have the right to vote? Where would we be?

Let's see.... the Pledge was written in 1892 and in 1954 Congress stuck in the "under God". That's 62 years.

From 1954 to 2003... mmm, let me take my socks off... uh huh, that's another 49 years.

I don't know, am I missing something here? :rolleyes:

A Short History of the Pledge of Allegiance: http://www.ifx.net/~wjohnson/pledge.htm

:D

It's been there all my life and I was born in 60

Yes you are, but you won't admit it. it was changed legally by our elected representatives, by a majority vote and signed by our president who, guess what, was also elected. where were the dissents then? They (the judges) don't want it reviewed by anyone thats why they keep putting a stay on their own decision, they know that if a vote ever were taken they would lose and lose big even in california.

Because of one very good reason, what if something were to go wrong in the country the president were from, how would he be expected to act or deal with it?

Thanks for bringing this to my attention war. I have gladly signed it and sent the link to all of my friends urging them to sign it too.

Very well said.

thanks!!

Oh for God sakes.

Christmas is NOT the birth of Jesus. The church says it is because they wanted to sanctify a secular holiday as being "Holy". Anybody that knows their Bible stuff will tell you Jesus was NOT born on Christmas.

As for the "In God we Trust"? I do believe in a higher power, BUT whose right is it that we demand they be there? It has no reason for being on the money. There is no seperation of church and state because we left it slide for so long BUT there is SUPPOSED to be seperation of church and state. So is saying that there is no real seperation of church and state a reasonable excuse to demand that everybody pray in school or force athiests or jews to claim something that they don't believe in or to force it on money? Because YOU believe in it? HOW SELFISH! That's like forcing a non-smoker to sit in the smoking section of a crowded resturant because YOU deem it the right and correct thing!!

I SAY NOT! It's wrong! You're forcing a belief system on somebody and that is what is wrong with Christianity today AND in the past. "If somebody doesn't believe in Christ, force it on them!" That is so WRONG especially for a country that belives in F R E E D O M. I say, if you want to do it, fine, but don't force everybody to do it. God has NOTHING to do with the political or financial position of the US and if it does, then why is the US in such a deficit??

PS: Don't plan on preaching to me because I am an ex-"born again". I've "been there done that". I know all the lines and I feel much better with myself in the beliefs I have come to by searching my feelings. Above is what I have come to with much soul searching. Take it or leave it, but it's my opinion. Does it make me unpatriotic?

Do they still have those in the U.S.? :D

/JD

I don't know.

Sephiroth said:
As Redkitty said. It was written in AFTER. "Under God" was a rewrite!

No there is not period, the government will not mandate an official religion period, god as used is generic.
Find where this is written in our constitution or bill of rights, I believe I pasted it in one of my posts, hell read the federalist papers and see how much has really changed and if you want to see how radical it could have been. Do the research. It may have been an add-in but it was done by the laws that govern us. Lets not forget we in part exist because our fore fathers wanted to get away from religious persecution, and no matter how you feel it all comes down to the majority rules.

No one tells anyone to pray in schools they take a moment of silence for reflection, no one forces anyone to believe in anything, You are the selfish one that you would deny someone who wants to pray in school to pray, you can't be still or quiet for a moment to reflect on something important to you, so everyone can't, so 1 person out of 30 doesn't want to say the pledge, thats fine they can stand in silence and contemplate while the other 29 say the pledge and you call me selfish because I allow the 29 to say the pledge, I don't think you even know what the word means. Be glad you can even voice your opinion about your own government, others don't have that right.

*sigh*

...here we go round the mulberry bush, ta dum da dum... :rolleyes:

Nope. Nothing generic about it, unless you are very parochial in your worldview. God (capital G) as used in the Pledge, etc. refers to a monotheistic deity as is found in the various sects of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Plenty of other religions share no such belief, never mind atheists like myself who think the whole religion thing is both silly and dangerous (nothing personal). Besides, if the usage was that meaningless, what would be the point of it? Might as well be praying to the Easter Bunny (no offense to all you bunny worshipers :) ).

Yep. Which makes something legal unless/until it is challenged in the courts and found unconstitutional. This is an attempt to use the issue in dispute as an argument. Does not compute.

Some of them did, yes. Many others were transported from debtor's prison or what have you. Of course a lot of the religious types were eager to start doing their own persecuting as soon as they got over here. How is this relevant, anyway? If someone prefers not to officially enshrine your religious practices, is he persecuting you? Don't think so...

Actually, most of the measures in the bill of rights were intended to protect the individual from the majority. Or so we are told, anyway. Maybe you have a different notion.

Well, no, that isn't really possible, is it? What you can do is pressure others to participate in public religious rituals so as to validate your particular private beliefs as the "official" norm.

I'm actually not inclined to be fanatical about church/state separation. I don't mind some official recognition of people's sentiments, a la creche scenes at Xmas and the like. Trouble is, some people, you give them an inch and they start thinking they've got exclusive rights to the place. When you say "our" Pledge of Allegiance or "our" money, just which "us" are you referring to? Also, it's perfectly appalling that so many people can't seem to grasp the difference between speaking as a private citizen and speaking in an official capacity. I would prefer to think that my fellow citizens are not so dense. <_<

"...as the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." -- from the Treaty of Tripoli (1797), negotiated under George Washington and signed under John Adams

reply to Kamikazee:You obviously did not go to the same school I did. Separation of church and state was a fundamental concept taught in elementary school. Where were you or were you sleeping? Separation of church and state WAS intended from the beginning. Do you think somebody just made it up? What does mandating a specific religion have to do with keeping a separation of Church and State. Nothing. They are two separate issues and OF COURSE government will not mandate an official religion. Do you think they want to lose their percentage of voters that are from alternate religions? HELL no! God is NOT used as generic. Reread the dollar bill or the Pledge. Both instances, if printed properly in their official current state, spell God with a capital G. The only time God is written in a generic sense, it is with a lower case g. God pertains to the "one true GOD" of the Christian religion. Possibly a Judiac God as well, but I don't pretend to speak for them. I know little about Judaism. Attempting to claim God as god in the pledge and in currency is utter BS. Anybody who says otherwise is trying to dilute the argument to get the phrase to stay in the pledge and on the money.

FYI, the original writing of Thomas Jefferson was written as:

YOU sir are the selfish one for putting words into my mouth! This is what I meant about trolling in the Bush thread. You deliberately stir up trouble. Here, you are doing it by putting words into my mouth. I never said remove prayer from school. Stand in silence? That is your answer to the problem? Why do you suppose that separate prayer rooms are not used, so that if a student wants to go bow down before Allah, they can do so and then join their class mates? I'll tell you why. Because the Christian constituents of the district would feel uncomfortable. People fear what they don't understand, and one of the things they fear most is that their kids are going to be "turned on" to an alternate religion. In school, it's all about removing influence. Keep the kids Christian. Don't give them a choice. I, for one, am convinced that most of the kids would think it is cool. Keeping them from influence of an alternate religion is like sending them to the proverbial Catholic school. Guess what? When they get their freedom of choice, they're going to switch anyway if they even contemplated it in the first place. I for one wish I would have been introduced to Buddhism before. Not that I want to become a buddhist, but they have some incredible philosophies. I for one grew up Catholic, became "born again", and then went "non-denominational" because I hate the crap the organized religion pulls. I could tell you tons of inhumane stuff that was done in the name of Christianity, but I'm not going to go into that. If you want an interesting read, look up the history of Christianity some time on Google. For some people, organized religion is great. Some people need to be part of a "flock". People need religion some times, but for christ sake, don't force Christianity down on everybody. When I grew up, we were forced to pray in school. The only compromise that Christianity has allowed is silent meditation. WHY are non-Christians forced to Pledge their loyalty to the US AND to GOD? What horrible catastrophe is going to befall the US if the phrase "under God" is removed from the Pledge and from currency? I'll tell you what. Absolutely nothing...

Why, we'd likely turn into a bunch of commie pinkos :o ... sort of like the early Christians!? :huh:

Wait, now, I'm getting all turned around... which side am I supposed to be on again?

:) :) :)