this was taken from http://www.democracymeansyou.com/serious/84reasons.htm but I thought it was something everyone should read.

-Rad

Interesting reading.

I agree, this is something everyone should read. Iti s interesting...biased but interesting. As a conservative I cannot disagree with many of the plans, proposals, etc on this list... in fact I support many of them. I am however certain that most presidents have left a legacy of issues equally lengthy that some people will be diametrically opposed to while others are wholey supporters of.

Political affilliations aside, it is hard to agree on a sole person to make the decisions for an entire country...it is even more difficult to agree on a congress of representatives to express the opinions of the public...with as close to the best system as we can realistically ask for, we still have problems...at least have a system, flawed as it may be.

"To Man: he is mad; he cannot make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by the dozens."
--Montaigne


------------------------------
Sigma Zeta 314

Actually, not very close at all to the best. Our particular system, the U.S. constitutional republic, was the first of its kind and is now over 200 years old. As with most technologies, more recent models have incorporated significant improvements over the original. Unfortunately, ours was deliberately constructed to be extremely difficult to upgrade. Many desirable modifications are not even a possibility, due to the original design specs. We are told this is a feature, not a bug. ;)

If you are at all interested in politics, go read this very entertaining and thoughtful book:
The Frozen Constitution by Daniel Lazare.
Or as I like to think of it, "Why Nothing Ever Gets Fixed in the USA".

By the way, I don't think the people who are currently running the USA are conservatives by any reasonable definition of the word, unless perhaps you classify them as monarchists.

Hmm...when I glanced at it first I thought it said 84 treasons. :lol: Maybe it should.

redkitty: You are right about the lack of upgrades to our system, but in comparison to most of the rest of the world and with relation to the ability to concieve and institute a system that is both better and more desireable by the majority of the US population, I conseider our system to be among the best.

And I must apologize for implying that the country is run by "conservatives" it is not...they are more like monarchists and even swing toward being megalomaniacal capitalists.

-Sigma Zeta 314

we all knew bush isnt the sharpest circle in the house, but seriously, i sure hope gore or someone else wins the next election.

Everybody for "someone else" raise your hands. That's almost always my preference. :rolleyes:

I see over 75 reasons to re-elect him :D

}---:)

Amen, tubeboy!

-Sig Z 314

umm what are some of these 75 reasons to re-elect him? just wondering.

No offense Rad, but just what is wrong with this quote?

"When it is all said and done, I will have made more money than I ever dreamed I would make." - G.W. Bush

And as far as Gore is concerned, I am glad him and his "lockbox" are not in the oval office right now *shudder*.

Who pays the taxes? Look here:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/men...s .guest.html

(Let me say that these views are not necessarily the views of BetaONE or its administration, they are wholly my own.)

**Give a man a fish you feed him for a day, TEACH a man to fish you feed him for life**

I for one don't need government telling me what to do with my money (as it currently does (social security)). Personal responsibility and accountability is something that should not be usurped by government; reliance on them to do things for us is a self perpetuating crutch.

No flames or offense meant ;) All the above is IMHO as a member and not an Admin :) :) :)

/JD

Our constitution was intended to LIMIT the Federal government. But Liberals and Socialists have turned it into a giant 'baby sitting' machine. Ever seen those "town hall" debates during a Presidential election? Where some one steps up to the mic and says "I'm a left handed chronic masturbator, what are you going to do to help me?"

Better you should keep your money local where you have more control over it and let the Feds do what they do best. National defence comes to mind.

And as far as that 'endangered species' crap is concerned, screw the 'natty assed butt fly' !

}---:)

@JackDynne you asked what is wrong with the quote "When it is all said and done, I will have made more money than I ever dreamed I would make." - G.W. Bush. I guess i just see it as sad, what the hell is wrong with our society when your own president is just trying to make as much money as possible, the guy is already freakn rich. I really detest the rich, why does one person need that much money? Look at bill gates he is worth more money then the bottem 45% of amaricans combinded, thats just sick. I really don't like seeing the majority people being held down in povertie so a few can be rich. So I think it's that our own presdident as that thought process. And you look at a lot of those 84 reasons and their totaly just helping the rich get richer.

@tubebuoy I guess I tottaly don't understand "giant 'baby sitting' machine" idea. Have you ever been poor? I sure have it deffinatly was by choice. I dunno about you but I think its pretty pittifull when people are working a good 90hours a week and still can't pay for an aprement or health care. How are these people being "baby sitted"? The majority of the poor are not poor by choice, they are trying.

no offince to either of you. just expressing my views, I wont be offended by yours.

A thought experiment for you avid Libertarians who are so concerned about someone "taking your money":
How about we put you down on a deserted isle for a year, with no tools or help? I am perfectly willing to concede that in such a case anything you produce during your stay will be yours alone, even though you will still be benefitting from an education that someone else gave you. How wealthy will you have become when we pick you up? Assuming you live through it, I mean?

News flash: the latest right-wing craziness to surface is the idea that poor people don't pay enough taxes. :blink:
hxxp://slate.msn.com/id/2074666/
Amazing gall, considering that we already have a flat tax rate in the US... What, you weren't aware?

from the New York Times Business section, Jan 20, 2003:




I don't come to this forum to debate politics but when I hear right-wing cant coming out of otherwise intelligent people it's hard not to froth at the mouth and chew the carpet (sure, left wing dogma is just as revolting, but not as destructive). Now I was weaned on Robert A. Heinlein and used to enjoy reading Ayn Rand's essays, if not her dreadful fiction, but if you live long enough, read enough, and pay attention to what people actually do rather than what they say, it becomes apparent that things aren't that simple. That's right, even Papa Heinlein had some clay on his feet.

People will always disagree about politics, but it is a fact that many of you out there think the way you do at least in part because for over 40 years, the corporatist right wing has waged a relentless, pervasive and well-financed propaganda war, particularly in the US. This is not opinion or conspiracy theory, it's on-the-record history. Anyone with an open mind and access to a good library and the internet can confirm it for themselves if they are willing to take the time. If you dismiss the idea because you think you are too smart to fall for marketing techniques, then you are being foolish. Even knowing what is being done to you doesn't entirely negate the effects of being immersed in lies 24/7. And they are lying to you. Before you trust your mental map of the world, remember -- garbage in, garbage out.

Propaganda was not perfected in the Soviet Union or Germany, that has happened in the good ol' USA, starting in the 1920's with roots in Madison Avenue. Goebbels and the other Nazis took lessons from people like Edward Bernays, who was busy inventing modern-day public relations in the USA.
hxxp://www.bway.net/~drstu/chapter.html
This history is only one reason that the US is the least liberal of all the modern developed nations (yes, Virginia, that's a bad thing :) ).

Can I prove what I'm saying? Yes, but not without a lot of time and effort. Practically, the best I can hope to do here is cast a few crumbs upon the water, so to speak. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but sometimes you just have to speak up....

A primer on some common propaganda techniques:
hxxp://carmen.artsci.washington.edu/propaganda/home.htm

" I really detest the rich"

That's your prob! But no poor person ever hired me! And, yes, I work for a rich person. He signs my paychecks and I cash them willingly!

"@tubebuoy I guess I tottaly don't understand "giant 'baby sitting' machine" idea. Have you ever been poor? "

1976, on welfare for 3 months.

1982, Taken to small claims court for '4 months back rent'. Perhaps the lowest point in my life. Out of work for 3 months and didn't qualify for unemployment benifits. I had already sold my 1962 100 watt Mashall head and had $8 to my name.

1995 Unemployed for 6 months. This time I got unemployment checks. :D

Yes, I've been poor and today I make less than a union auto worker. BUT! I never felt that OTHER PEOPLE should give me thier money! And this is what your are asking when you cry to the government that you want stuff you can't pay for. You are asking your neighbors to give you thier money. Everything you get from the government comes from tax payers.

And who are these tax payers? Look around you! They're everywhere! They're you and me! Would you like to tell me what you don't have and why I should buy it for you?

Facts of life...

...You're born, you grow old, you get sick, you die. Deal with it and stop blaming other people for your sorry ass!

Just my opinion.

}---:)

yeah ok, all I know is its a proven fact that in our society makes vertical mobility in society almost imposible for most people.

but hey we just have totaly diffrent ways at looking at things. its all good :D I still respect you. hell i wasn't even alive in '76 now i feel like a little kid lol

Here is what it's like to be a friend of clintons,
Just a few people Clinton didn't have to Pardon:

James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an
apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key
witness in Ken Starr's investigation.

Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a
Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after
she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White
House.

Vince Foster - Former white House counselor, and colleague of
Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to
the head, ruled a suicide.

Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported
to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the
investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull
resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being
investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

C. Victor Raiser II - & - Montgomery Raiser, Major players in the
Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July
1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found
dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton
as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in
the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed
Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton
groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in
several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in
Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside
Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton.
He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the
files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he
had a "Black Book" of people which contained names of influential people
who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging
suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson, ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was
found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It
was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she
were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill
Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating
witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical
of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a
gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.

Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton's friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping
out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted
drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related
to the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three
gunshot wounds.

Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was
Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of
the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until
her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport
and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists,
apparently, in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport
with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet
June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to
Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution TrustCorp.
Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony
August 15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron
Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her
bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department
of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John
Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane
crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health
Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small
plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory
council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, death was no
accident.

Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill
Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead
after his car had hit a utility pole.

Stanley Huggins - Investigated Madison Guarantee. His death was a
purported suicide and his report was never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994
when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case.
Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas
airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death
said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2
boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to
the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:
Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a
truck, 7/88.

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump
in April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his
death was due to "natural causes".

Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his
pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - A suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. He was
killed in set-up robbery July 1989.

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:
Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan
Quite an impressive list! Pass this on. Let the public become aware
of what happens to friends of the Clinton's!

My take on the current situation is that the attention of the people in the US has been diverted from fundamental issues like health care, education, environment, retirement, etc. Since 9/11 it's considered bad form to ask too many questions. (you might get hit by a beer bottle).

But, hey, after reading kamikazee's list, who wants to ask embarassing questions?

Right wing, left wing.... BAH, I like chicken wings, the hotter the better :)

On being poor: If you consider getting food with stamps and eating government cheese as poor, then I guess I was as a child.

On Robert Heinlein: I have, read, and re-read ALL of his books, his writing transcends genres :)

On the point I was trying to make in my previous post: It is not about someone "taking my money" it is about, in fact, the government making choices for me, taking and holding and using money that I have earned because I am "not smart enough" (maybe not said but implied) to make social security choices myself. Frankly, I don't like it. It is also about the concept of getting something for nothing, another idea I just don't like. This country was built upon the backs of immigrants, who busted their butts and made smart decisions in order to provide a better life for their children and their children's children. Many of them did succeed, and they earned it. :)

On class warfare: It's a tactic that has been used over and over again. In my opinion it is fundamentally flawed; I once asked an elderly couple (staunch democrats) why should people with higher incomes be taxed more. Their reply was that they should just because they make more money. I just don't get it when someone that has busted their butt, making personal sacrifices to improve themselves and their family, essentially gets penalized for it. Also, just what is considered poor? I have seen houses built by Habitat for Humanity, a great idea IMHO when they reach their target, but as soon as they're built they have satellite dishes on the roofs and new cars in the driveway. Is that considered poor? I just don't get it. :huh:

ANYWAY - That's all I am going to say on this matter (when people get on soapboxes and start preaching politics and religion I have to take two steps back, myself included ;) ) and I have strayed too far from the content of this board I fear, after promising myself to not become entangled in these discussions. :rolleyes:

And once again, these views are mine as a member and not as an admin, nor are they the views of the BetaONE Staff :) No flames or offense intended, healthy discussion is good for the soul :) :)

/me looks for some more 'brainteaser' questions to post to chit chat :)

Respectfully,

/JD

JackDynne ----

The Star Beast is the first real novel I can remember reading. I still re-read and enjoy most of Heinlein's stuff, though personally I haven't much use for anything he wrote after The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. I don't know about you, but his ideas about individualism and proper behaviour had a strong influence on me. I share some of your feelings. Nonetheless, the standard American mythology you are re-hashing in your last post does NOT stand up to a serious argument.

Maybe the reason you "don't get it" is partly because for decades now, unless one really goes looking for it, he never hears a serious argument about this sort of thing. *sigh* While I'd love to buy you a drink and discuss that, it isn't why either of us is here.

Food for Thought Dept. -- Why is it that, in the USA, complete strangers think nothing of interrogating you about your livelihood and finances, but discussing a person's religion or politics is usually considered somewhat rude and overly familiar? In Europe, I understand that most people feel exactly the opposite. Until at least the mid-20th Century, politics was a lively topic for conversation in this country, so why do people now mostly feel compelled to stick to "safe" subjects, like sports and television?

Well, maybe...

Not really considered rude and familiar, some people just refuse to see contrasting points of view and can get quite heated about those two subjects in particular. The result is that the trouble of dealing with fanatisicm is more than its worth. Hmmm... I wish more people would read to help expand their imaginations to see differing points of view. Ignorance is bliss I guess :unsure: (not intended at you redkitty or any other member of this board)

Oh well..........

/JD

Good thing all us Beta-zoids are so reasonable, huh?

:) :D :P :D :)

Life's too short to be any other way m8 ;) :)

We all get by with a little help from our friends :)

Cheers :)

/JD

Maybe Washington DC has to many cracks and hacks. Patches don't seem to work. Maybe a reformat? :)

LOL :) Make sure you have a full working backup before you format a domain controller (DC) ;)

:D :D :D

/JD