OK, it seems like you are a pro Bush person. This is going to turn the whole thread into a flame. LET'S NOT GO THERE!

I for one agree with Redkitty. I have read tons of reports about apparent lies that Bush has made and I believe they are true. I'm not going to go there. It's a waste of my time and I want to talk about something else. If you want the information, just do a search on Google for "Bush lies". You'll find tons. If you're actually trying to start a flame, then shame on you.

Thats fine and my point is now made, inuendos and rumors or "apparent lies" are fine, but ask for proof and now I flame? Thats the problem, facts I guess are irrelevant, "I don't have to have proof" I just say so and thats that period.

You're point is now made? MWAHAHAHA! You just proved my point. I said IF you were trying to start a flame! I didn't say you were flaming, only that it seemed so by your first post. The tone of your first post seemed pro Bush and slightly irritated. Now considering the reply you made, it seems obviously so. I gave you a method to get the information you wanted and now your pissed because I view your post as trolling which it apparently was. You just ruined a perfectly even tempered thread by it. I'm done here. I don't play with Trolls.

Posted by me previously:
Well, so much for my steel-trap memory... Here's the actual Bush quote:
Bush said this in response to a reference by a television reporter to a possible war in Iraq.
A couple of sources:

http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/2...hwarnat2p2.asp

http://www.militaryinfo.com/news_sto...textnewsid=142

As you can see, the words don't sound as damning in context. However I have heard enough similar statements and seen enough actions from Bush and his band of thugs to believe that this wording does reflect their very anti-democratic, authoritarian mindset. Don't trust my judgement? Then do your own homework.

kamikazee -- I'm not going to respond directly to your posts. Here's why:

First, I wouldn't know where to start. I have scarcely heard a public statement from anyone in the Bush administration (or from his Reich-wing allies in the media) that does not contain half-truths and outright lies. And as Mark Twain once famously noted, it is much easier to spread a lie than to counteract it. This is a classic propaganda technique -- to bury your opponents in so much bullshit that they spend all their time just trying to catch up.

If I started documenting everything that has formed my political views, I would be at it 24/7 and would soon be kicked off this forum for overloading the servers, I have no doubt. Also, there is this -- if you pay enough attention, you will eventually develop a "nose" for deception and propaganda. Often you can tell when someone is using it on you, even without knowing exactly what facts they are twisting.

I just turned 50. Age doesn't necessarily make you wise, but I tell you this: if you are a decade or two younger than me, you have never lived in a United States that was not flooded with corporatist, right-wing propaganda, and there was plenty of it around even before I was born, too. It's in the very air you breathe and the only defense is to actively educate yourself. So far, they** haven't managed to completely neuter the Internet and (some) public libraries. The Truth is out there, but you do have to go looking for it.

** "they" refers to the bad guys, which includes but is not limited to, the whole Bush family, all his administration and most of the corporate-owned Democratic and Republican parties. The main difference between Democrats and Repubs these days is that when the Dem's faq you over they feel guilty about it. The Republicans, on the other hand, take their ability to do so as a sign of mental and moral superiority.

www.faisal.com

Well, not really.... but let's say I can respect your opinion.

Not quite as damning or inflammatory as when you first "quoted" them out of context.

I have to agree with you on this, and I think you know why. Thanks for opening my eyes... <_<

I cannot really agree with that.

Just had to throw one of my favorite quotes from Dune in there :D :D :D

No offense redkittycat but lighten up a bit, life's too short :) Thanks for the links :)

:D Carpe Diem :D

/JD

When I was in school T-shirts were white. We never dreamed anyone would want to advertise preferences, political or otherwise on clothing. :)

Discussion is the key to understanding. Listening is as important as speaking. I'm not confident the public gets enough unadulterated information. ...certainly not enough to draw beer bottle throwing type conclusions.

My big gripe with what's going on in Washington is that the real agendas may not be well understood by the public. I suspect the issues are very basic--like oil and military spending, for example. The rest is to drum up public support. Corporate America has a big hand in deciding what the politicians do.

I think the Americans showed the way, demonstrating how important public debate is in making their system work. Let's just hope the checks and balances are working and mistakes are held to a minimum.

Really now, Jack. If I were trying to pull the wool over your eyes, I like to think I could do a better job of it. I'd have steered you to some less objective links for starters. Thanks for your research too, it's always good to get the details and I'm not sorry to have the sensationalism stripped away from both of the incidents I mentioned. If you think there's nothing in the middle of the onion, fine. Maybe it's just the smell I don't like.... :) I'd say Darkwolven did a good job of arguing the one case. And I should point out that both stories were substantially true.

I will admit to having a prejudiced view of those I know to be deliberate liars. A lot of good people didn't believe that Nixon was a crook, but he was, you know. When I hear Bush talk about having secret evidence that he can't share with us I can't help but remember Nixon's secret plan to end the war in VietNam. Turned out the only plan he had was to get re-elected. IMO Bush is using the same old playbook and playing with lives in the same cavalier fashion, if for bigger stakes this time around.

I always regret getting sucked into a discussion like this. It's fun and all, but in the end you never prove anything or change anyone's mind. And of course it's pretty hard to avoid sounding like a pompous ass when you're talking about big things in such a small arena. The cruelest blow of all is -- now it seems you aren't going to respect me in the morning, you brute! :lol:

Oh great, now everyone knows.... :P :D

I hear that ;) Next topic will be religion :o (just kidding) :lol:

Anyway, anyone hear about that latest beta.......... ;)

/JD